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[tudorlady]

Okay, I have the beta-test version of my smock cut, and started on the embroidery.

The hardest part was figuring out how big to make the neckline. I consider myself unforgivably pudgy, but beneath it there, my frame, and especially my shoulders remain a stubbon 10-ish. As in, unless I'm very nearly dead, I'll never wear anything off the rack smaller than a 10, because that's the size my shoulders are. So, when the most visible part of a garment is going to be right where my body hardly changes, but it also has to cover the rest of my loathsome adipose carcass - yeah. One size will not fit all. And in this case, it may well not ever fit anyone else.

So, I played around last night, and came up with a good way to freehand Tudor roses, which is a good thing, because I can't draw worth a damn. I can get the basic shape and do the detail work with the threads. Originally I was thinking I'd do violets - mostly because I have an enormous amount of purple embroidery thread, and I happen to like them, but I wasn't able to find them as embroidered decoration in any other 16thC examples I had handy last night - at least not where they were by themselves, but rather in the context of something else.

Which brings me to this. I am going to talk to the empty auditorium here for a minute. I'm going to try to make this make sense, but chances are I've completely missed the point, so don't take me too seriously.

Original, period clothes, by which I don't mean actual extant examples. I'm talking about original work done within the period parameters (as much as reasonably possible).

This is a big bugaboo of mine. It's wonderful that there is so much source material out there now to learn from. If we'd had anything remotely resembling this back in the early 70s when I got started (except for a single broadcast of Elizabeth R here in the states), there is no telling how far and how fast I would have gone. I'm pretty sure I would have left the solar system years ago, yanno?

So. How come I keep seeing things that are supposedly copies of garments in portraits, often down to the trim and fabric being near-perfect-replica? Some are uncannily accurate, and I can appreciate that, but those who actually manage to achieve this are really a very small percentage. If you want to copy, fine. I totally get it. It takes a tremendous amount of skill (not to mention time, money, and other stuff) to bring off a good copy of something from a painting or an extant piece - and when it's done right, the effect is amazing.

But what about a little originality? I see so many outfits which are an attempt to copy a portrait (or copy a copy of someone else's copy, by which time they're not really recognizable as such) that it makes me wonder if (a) people simply aren't very imaginative, or (b) people are afraid to use what they've learened to experiment. No excuse for the first, but I have some empathy - although little patience - for the second. Sticking with known things is safe. You can produce documentation on the spot, if you're asked, and yes, some of us have been asked and are ready with it. Copying requires no extrapolation.

However. The clothing worn in portraits is the equivalent of what's worn to the Academy Awards. Wealthy persons got good use out of it, but unless one was a monarch (or a Medici), one didn't go about like that 24/7 and I'm none too so sure what the Medicis did on the weekends). The same people who had these stunning things also had more commonplace clothing. But there's kind of a problem with that, too - because now that people are actually researching it, you keep seeing things that look pretty familiar. (Seen one Flemish, seen 'em all? No? Then how come I see so many of the same dress?)

I'm NOT talking about spanning eras or cultures in a single suit of clothes, although I see it done with alarming frequency. I'm talking about exercising your own personal taste within the period. Imagine for a minute that my 16thC persona has come back to the country from Greenwich, where just now (1580s) anything Italian/Spanish/French/Flavor of the Month is all the rage. I do not have a court tailor. However, I have a perfectly able tailor in Ewell to whom I'm able to describe and perhaps draw this in detail for. I can't copy the exact goods I saw there, except for a length of fabric I may have bought from a fashionable draper. I can incorporate the right elements from the period. The result is a suit of clothes in the flavor of the month, in a color that suits me rather than one as close as possible to the example, and done with my own accessories which are like, but not identical to those I saw a month earlier (by which time this suit would get me laughed out of Hampton Court). By changing a few, mutable details, you can have something that is your own. You do look like you've just stepped out of a portrait. Your OWN.

Uhm, so. Yeah. I'm trying out a smock pattern.

Comments

[sstormwatch.livejournal.com]

You know, I really get what you are saying (says the woman who has copied a Victorian redraw of a Henry outfit because *that* was what the client wanted). I think in part we do such things, because we know how to sew, but we may not know how to design, which is a bit harder to do, at least in making something look good.

And I know what you mean by the violets thing. There is just a small sampling of surviving garments, yet that is what people do, what survived. So, if I were you, do the violets you enjoy. We know they liked violets then as well. We know what they took their inspirations from; the herbal book drawings, so be inspired, and make up what you want.

And on size 10 shoulders/upper chest... mine will always be a size 14, maybe a 12 if I ever lose that much weight, which I hope will happen ... someday. And I am starting to get that slight hump back there (hump? what hump?)
;-)

[tudorlady.livejournal.com]

Victorian redraw of a Henry outfit because *that* was what the client wanted

All bets are off when doing work to a client's spec. I absolve myself of design problems that are their choice, because I don't control it, they're the ones paying for it. You can advise, you can cajole, you can sneak in an authentic feature which is actually simpler and better than the elaborate theatrical fake, but when it comes down to it, you've got to give the lady/guy what s/he wants. No matter how stupid it looks. (However, I no longer do weddings. Not for any reason.) I'm hoping to find someone to sew for that I can barter for repairs on my house/landscaping - I've been putting a bug in people's ear that I've made horse equipment and luggage, I've done gambesons, so... I'm waiting to hear back from a couple of vague rumors of willingness. God knows this is the only way I can afford it.

If I ever get **close** to a 12 again, I'll be happy. Plus, my first early Elizabethan will fit, which should be as amusing as all hell. Check in with the doc to counteract that bump on your back. If it's a posture issue, it can be corrected (I sit slouched over far too much), but 'dowagers' hump' is actually due to a combination of osteoporosis and genetics. I've lucked out there - I apparently have very dense bones for a woman of my ::cough:: age, so this isn't likely to be a problem. Which is a good thing, too, because in the last year I've had two falls that I'm told would have resulted in broken bones in nearly anyone else. In any case, you're much younger than me, if you suspect this might become a problem, you can still head off the osteoporosis or at least sugnificantly mitigate it.

Thing that's been irking me for a while? I can spot someone who's used a Margo pattern from a hundred paces. They all look the same.

[sstormwatch.livejournal.com]

Thing that's been irking me for a while? I can spot someone who's used a Margo pattern from a hundred paces. They all look the same.

I guess I will be irking you then, as I am using a Margo pattern for my loose kirtle and gown. I happened to like her gown sleeves, as when I tried them, I really botched it up good and royal. Me and sleeves don't mix well.
;-)

[marymont.livejournal.com]

You have voiced brilliantly what I've contemplated for years. I've done a couple of the slavish reproductions, but only one of them was for myself. And I wore it two times. It no longer fits, and will require complete recutting of the bodice to make it work again.

I much prefer doing the method you describe herein.

Many cheers to you.

[fearga.livejournal.com]

Recreating a portrait can be done to learn the aesthetic, or discover how a sleeve draped, or a way to learn about a combination of skills-but I agree, far too many folk do just the re-creation. It's a considerably harder leap from copying the academy awards gown to actually *making* it in the first place. That's why I like your stuff so much--you take the aesthetic and apply it to your own clothing, and end up looking stunning. :)

[auronsgirl.livejournal.com]

I know I'll never convince you of this, but a size 10 is NOT fat. It really isn't. I was a size 10 for one summer of my teenage life and then the combination of eating poorly and a triple endocrinal clusterfuck put a good 150 pounds on me in short order.

It really bothers me to hear people who aren't fat refer to themselves that way, because honestly, until you're at the point where you can't go to a store to buy your clothes and people actually gasp as you walk by, you don't know what it's like to really, truly be fat and be treated as fat people are in society. You may think that a size 10 is the very worst thing that could happen to you, but I assure you - it isn't.

[tudorlady.livejournal.com]

Sweetie, my shoulders are a size ten, but the rest of me quit counting. Right now I'm as heavy as I've ever been. The only thing that hasn't changed is the part of my neckline, which is why this is a dilemna - if I'd gotten big all over, it wouldn't be a problem.

When the rest of my body even came close to fitting my shoulders, I was perfectly happy. I was also "heavier" than I "should have been" to get into a ten. I used to snicker because according to the "charts" I was still at least 30+# overweight. Hyeah. Jokes on them. (See, when you're barely 5' tall, you're not "supposed to" to weigh more than 100#. Most ten year olds I know are bigger than that. Screw it.)

Just now I honestly think I've gained weight because of extreme stress in the last couple of years, and because I refuse to torture myself. I'll keep refusing to torture myself, and work toward fixing the stress.

So, get into your best Tudor, and let's go get some ice cream.

xoxoxo

[auronsgirl.livejournal.com]

I'll see your ice cream and raise you homemade dutch chocolate cheesecake. With homemade raspberry coulis.

[tudorlady.livejournal.com]

You're on ;)

[ciorstan.livejournal.com]

But what about a little originality?

I completely get this.

When I was a girl, I drew, constantly. I wanted to be H. J. Ford, the illustrator for Lang's books of fairy tales that were reprinted by Dover-- you know, the Red Fairy Book, the Green Fairy Book... all of those. They have these wonderful pen illustrations in them and there are, I think, about fifteen volumes. Anyway, I copied them, over and over again, practicing. It made me technically more proficient, but it didn't do much for creativity.

My father is an artist and lives by his brush and has done so for as long as I can remember (he's listed in Who's Who in American Art, btw... he's successful). He was looking through my sketchbook one day and came to me and said, "This is all copying. Where is YOUR work?"

And that is why I don't copy portraits for my clothes.

[tudorlady.livejournal.com]

HJ Ford - the set-designer of my fantasies. I started collecting the color fairy books when I was 14 (finally have 'em all) and I'm pretty sure that's what started a lifetime weakness for PreRaphaelites. When I was 14, I SO wished clothing from the middle ages looked like that! I wished that so much that for at least a while, I believed they did... (yeah, well, PreRaphaelitism isn't the worst costuming sin out there...)

I think being a good copyist is part of being a good draftsman, especially where drawing is concerned. It's how you learn technique. Seriously, I'm in awe of someone who can render a good copy of a drawing because it takes tremendous skill, as well as discipline to rein in your own instinct and reproduce something (all the while telling said instinct "We'll get burgers later, don't worry.") accurately. I think this is different than interpretation, which is what I'm applying to clothing here.

Cheers for us for being our own portraits.

[ciorstan.livejournal.com]

I think being a good copyist is part of being a good draftsman, especially where drawing is concerned. It's how you learn technique. Seriously, I'm in awe of someone who can render a good copy of a drawing because it takes tremendous skill, as well as discipline to rein in your own instinct and reproduce something (all the while telling said instinct "We'll get burgers later, don't worry.") accurately. I think this is different than interpretation, which is what I'm applying to clothing here.

Yes. You understood the underlying metaphor.

There are any number of costumers who will slavishly copy portrait after portrait after portrait. They are craftsmen. For whatever reason, they are not going to venture into plausible extrapolation, for lack of imagination or because it is probably intellectually... frightening.

We-- you, me, marymont, aeddie and the like, are the artists.

[ciorstan.livejournal.com]

Ah, and now that I think about it-- there's a particular drawing, in the Green Fairy Book, of a princess herding sheep, in her princess dress. It's a cotehardie, with slashed sleeves, sort of like Susan's green wool dress in the Narnia movie. She's standing on a hillside looking down, holding a staff or crook.

I tried to make that for my first SCA sewing project and failed miserably, because I didn't yet have the drafting skills for anything larger than a Barbie.

Note that my Bad Garb Bingo Card has one particular square on it...

[tudorlady.livejournal.com]

When I get home tonight, I'm gonna look.

Like I said, this is not the worst sin one can commit. That would be being a belly bunny. Given the choice between seeing a bit of PreRaphaelite/19thC-ism in clothes and the B&D/SF/Fantasy people, guess which one I'd pick?

And thanks in advance for the fun stuff. xoxox

[florentinescot.livejournal.com]

I've known judges in A&S competitions to complain because it wasn't a recreation of a portrait -- anything else "can't be documented" you see ...

IMO, that's a bunch of crap!

but .....

[marymont.livejournal.com]

It's true that this occurs, but it's not good or right. And it's also true that it's a bunch of crap.

But who am I to judge those judges? I'm just a lowly Laurel (elevated in 1979). THEY are the judges.

[florentinescot.livejournal.com]

*snerk*

*giggle*

[marymont.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry. (sorta)

Oh, I'm bad.

But I loved saying it.

[florentinescot.livejournal.com]

Make that "known OF judges.

Personally, I'm with you.

[attack-laurel.livejournal.com]

This is my take on the matter.

And I do both, as my website attests. :)

[tattycat.livejournal.com]

I don't do painstaking portrait reproductions because frankly, I don't have the patience. That may sound weird from someone who handsews, but I really don't have the drive (?) to spend months looking for that one fabric that perfectly matches the fabric and colour in the portrait, nor do I have the money to buy it if I were to find it (who *are* these people who can spend $80 a yard or more on velvet? Can they adopt me?).

I mostly use portraits as the visual hook to get me interested in a fashion or combination of garments, and as documentation for the style/colours/type of embellishment, etc.

But then, I did most of my competing in Calontir, where creativity and authenticity weren't seen as conflicting categories in competition.

[tudorlady.livejournal.com]

ooooooh - where in Calontir? I has stories of teh erly days.